An ''Interview'' With the Popes
Pope Pius IX
IHSV - Your Holiness, today the dogma "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" is nearly universally denied. What do you hold in respect to this doctrine?
PIUS IX- "The Church is One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, and Roman: unique, the Chair founded on Peter ... Outside her fold is to be found neither the True Faith nor eternal salvation, for it is impossible to have God for a Father if one has not the Church for a Mother." (Singulari Quidem)
IHSV - Your Holiness, many people seem to think that Protestants, pagans, Jews, etc., can become holy without having recourse to the Church. What is your Holiness' position?
PIUS IX-"Neither sanctity nor salvation can be found outside the Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman Church."(cf. Racolta 626)
IHSV - Your Holiness, despite this, most people today think non-Catholics can achieve salvation outside the Church. How would you respond?
PIUS IX- "By means of religious indifference, crafty men deceitfully pretend that people can attain eternal salvation in the practice of any religion, as though there could be any fellowship of light with darkness. These men conclude that not only sons of the Church but also others, however estranged they may remain from Catholic unity, are equally on the road to salvation and are able to achieve everlasting life. Words fail Us from utter horror in detesting and abhorring this new and terrible insult!"(Ubi Primum)
IHSV - Your Holiness, the Church has often been referred to as the "Ark of Salvation." Would you like to comment on this title?
PIUS IX- "The Church is rich with heavenly doctrine ... sailing like a ship on the high seas of this world, preserving those who come to her safe and sound, while the world outside perishes.(Aeterni Patris)
IHSV - Your Holiness, in light of the above statement, what must Catholics hold in regard to the dogma of exclusive salvation?
PIUS IX- "It must be held as a matter of Faith, that outside the Apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only Ark of Salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the Flood." (Singulari Quadem)
IHSV - Your Holiness, in light of this dogma, what advice would you give non-Catholics?
PIUS IX- "Let those who wish to be saved come to this pillar, to this foundation of Truth which is the Church ... We will never spare Ourselves from any pains whatsoever ... to bring back those who are ignorant and in error to this one and only way of Truth and Salvation. Moreover, let all those who oppose Us remember that heaven and earth will pass away,but that not one of Christ's words can pass away, nor can anything be changed in the doctrine which the Catholic Church has received from Jesus Christ to preserve, to protect, and to preach." (Ubi Primum)
IHSV - Your Holiness, but would it not be proper for us to at least hope for the salvation of those who die outside the Church?
PIUS IX- "That we can have at least good hope for the salvation of those who have never been in the true Church of Christ is hereby condemned as error. (Syllabus of Errors)
IHSV - Your Holiness, St. Paul stated that "Without faith, it is impossible to please God." What does he mean by this?
PIUS IX- "Faith is absolutely necessary for salvation ... for he who does not believe shall be condemned" (Singulari Quadem)
IHSV - Your Holiness, seeing that St. Paul was a Bishop, what would you tell the bishops of the modern Church?
PIUS IX- "You must indeed see to it that the faithful have fixed firmly in their minds this dogma of our most holy religion, namely: the absolute necessity of the Catholic Faith for attaining salvation!"(Nostis Et Nobiscum)
IHSV - Your Holiness, speaking of bishops and such, what do you think of the "ecumenical" gestures made by certain high ranking ecclesiastics?
PIUS IX- "That Christians and ecclesiastics should pray for Christian unity under the direction of heretics and, what is worse, according to an intention which is radically impregnated and vitiated by heresy, is absolutely impossible to tolerate!"
IHSV - Your Holiness, perhaps You would like to close this interview with an appropriate prayer.
PIUS IX- "O God, everlasting Creator of all things, remember that the souls of unbelievers were made by Thee and formed in Thine own image and likeness. Remember that Thy Son Jesus Christ endured a most bitter death for their salvation. Permit not, O Lord, that Thy Son should any longer be despised by unbelievers ... Forget their idolatry and unbelief, and grant that they too may some day know Him Whom Thou hast sent, the very Lord Jesus Christ, Who is our Salvation, our Life and Resurrection, by Whom we have been saved and delivered, to Whom be glory for endless ages. Amen." (Racolta 612)
Pope Leo XIII
IHSV - Your Holiness, considering that the modern Church is ravaged with this "sentimental theology," which bases Faith on feelings and sentiment rather than divine revelation and objective Truth, it is small wonder that the dogma "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" is denied by nearly everybody. Many say that people who at least acknowledge Christ can be saved, since they can be, in a certain sense, inside the Church. What does Your Holiness hold in regard to this solemn doctrine?
LEO XIII- "Those who acknowledge Christ must acknowledge Him completely and entirely. The Head is the only-begotten Son of God; the Body is His Church. All who dissent from the Scriptures concerning Christ are not in the Church, and all who agree with the Scriptures concerning the Head but who do not communicate in the unity of the Church are not in the Church. They can in no way be counted among the children of God unless they take Jesus Christ as their Brother and, at the same time, the Church as their Mother ... Consequently, all who wish to reach salvation outside the Church are mistaken as to the way and are engaged in a futile effort ... Christianity is, in fact, incarnate in the Catholic Church; it is identified with that perfect and spiritual society which is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ and has for its visible Head the Roman Pontiff ... This is Our last lesson to you: receive it, engrave it upon your minds, all of you: by God's commandment, salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church." (Annum Ingressi Sumus and Tametsi)
IHSV - Your Holiness, but what about the "invisible Church" theory?
LEO XIII- "Those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden and invisible Church are in grievous and pernicious error." (Satis Cognitum)
IHSV - Your Holiness, most people today say that, while still being a Catholic, you can teach and believe that people can be saved without the Faith. Would you please comment on this?
LEO XIII- "You are not to be looked upon as holding the Catholic Faith if you do not teach that the Faith of Rome is to be held."(Satis Cognitum)
IHSV - Your Holiness, many "traditionalists" hold just about the entire Catholic Faith, with the exception of this dogma on salvation, which we know to have been revealed. What of them?
LEO XIII- "There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the entire cycle of Catholic doctrine and yet, by a single word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by Our Lord and handed down by Apostolic Tradition ... For such is the nature of the Faith that nothing can be more absurd than to accept some of the things and reject others. If, then, it be certain that anything is revealed by God, and this is not believed, then nothing whatever is believed by divine Faith ... But he who dissents even onone point from divinely-revealed Truth absolutely rejects all Faith, since he therefore refuses to honor God as the Supreme Truth and formal motive of Faith. In many things they are with me, in a few things they are not with me, the many in which they are will not profit them. And this, indeed, most deservedly, for they who take from Christian doctrine what they please lean on their own judgment, not on Faith ... and they obey themselves more truly than they obey God ... We are absolutely bound to worship God in that way which He has shown to be His will ... You who believe what you like and do not like of the Gospels believe yourselves rather than the Gospels.
IHSV - Your Holiness, we know that outside the Church there is no salvation. But what of the Eastern Orthodox churches who have valid sacraments, but who do not accept the Pope's authority?
LEO XIII- "By seceding from Peter and his successors, they are separated from the Foundation upon which the entire edifice must rest. They are therefore outside the building itself; and for this very reason they are separated from the Fold whose leader is the Chief Pastor; they are exiled from the Kingdom, the keys of which were given by Christ to Peter alone." (Satis Cognitum)
IHSV - Your Holiness, but don't they have valid sacraments?
LEO XIII- "The Sacraments, which some people keep and use outside the unity of Christ, can preserve the appearance of piety; but the invisible and spiritual virtue of true piety cannot abide there any more than feeling can remain in an amputated part of your body. (Exima Nos Laetitia)
Pope Saint Pius X
IHSV - Your Holiness, many Catholics are confused today about the doctrine of salvation, and consequently are ignorant of the duty they have toward non-Catholics. They don't seem to know which road leads us to Jesus Christ. Would you please comment on this?
St. PIUS X- "Where is the road which leads us to Jesus Christ? It is before our eyes: it is the Church. It is our duty to recall to everyone, great and small, the absolute necessity we are under to have recourse to this Church in order to work out our eternal salvation."(Supremi Apostolatus)
IHSV - Your Holiness, but what is the lot of infidels who die outside the Church?
St. PIUS X- "Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned." (Gate of Heaven, p. 17 - Decree of the Holy Office, 1907)
IHSV - Your Holiness, this is obviously in accord with the defined dogma "no salvation outside the Church." But what of those who say that Christ didn't teach a determined body of doctrine applicable to all times and to all men, and this doctrine doesn't necessarily apply today since it can be adapted to different times and places?
St. PIUS X- "That Christ did not teach a determined body of doctrine applicable to all times and to all men, but rather that He inaugurated a religious movement adapted, or to be adapted, to different times and different places, is hereby condemned as error."(Errors of the Modernists no. 59)
IHSV - Your Holiness, but what of the popular "progress of dogma" theory, as well as the "changing sense of dogmas," theory?
St. PIUS X- "Progress of dogmas is, in reality, nothing but corruption of dogmas ... I absolutely reject the heretical doctrine of the evolution of dogma, as passing from one meaning to another, different from the sense in which the Church originally held it. And likewise, I condemn every error by which philosophical inventions, or creations of the human mind, or products elaborated by human effort and destined to indefinite progress in the future are substituted for that divine Deposit given by Christ to the faithful custody of the Church ... Condemned and proscribed is the error that dogmas are nothing but interpretations and evolutions of Christian intelligence which have increased and perfected the little seed hidden in the Gospel"(Sacrarum Antistitum, Errors of the Modernists, and Ecclesiam Suam)
IHSV - Your Holiness, many people say you musn't censure people (i.e., Scripture scholars, theologian, etc.,) when they construct premises from which it follows that dogmas, in this case the dogma of salvation, are false, doubtful, or hazy, so long as he doesn't directly deny the dogma itself. Is this true?
St. PIUS X- "That a Scripture scholar is not to be censured if he constructs premises from which it follows that dogmas are false or doubtful, provided he does not directly deny the dogmas themselves, is hereby condemned as error." (Errors of the Modernists, no. 24)
IHSV - Your Holiness, almost everyone today says that ignorant natives can be saved so long as they are nice, virtuous, and lead a good life. Is this true?
St. PIUS X- "Acts which spring from natural goodness have only the appearance of virtue; they cannot last of themselves, nor can they merit salvation."(Editae Saepe)
IHSV - Your Holiness, regarding ignorance, many people say that faith is a gift and that ignorance can save. Would you please comment on this?
St. PIUS X- "We pray and conjure you to reflect on the ruin of souls which is wrought by this single cause: ignorance of those most sublime truths, so far beyond the natural understanding of the multitude, which must nonetheless be known by all men alike in order that they may attain eternal salvation. Nor will it do to say, as an excuse, that faith is a gift. Yes, all who are baptized in Christ have infused into them the habit of faith, but this most divine germ does not develop when left to itself, as though by its own power. Man at his birth has within him the faculty of understanding, but he must necessarily bring it into action. So, too, the Christian has faith within him, but he needs the word of the Church to make it fruitful. No one can fulfill the duties of a Christian without knowing them. We positively maintain that the will of man cannot be upright nor his conduct good while his intellect is the slave if crass ignorance! A man who has become blind is certain to walk into the mouth of danger. There is always some hope for the reform of evil-living so long as the light of faith is not wholly extinguished; whereas, if, as a result of ignorance, lack of faith is added to corruption, the situation scarcely admits of remedy, and the road to eternal ruin lies open. This we solemnly affirm: the majority of those who are condemned to eternal punishment fall into this everlasting misfortune through ignorance of the Mysteries of the Faith which must necessarily be known and believed by all who belong to the Elect."(cf. Acts of the Supreme Pontiff Pius X, Rome: Vatican Press, 1904)
IHSV - Thank you very much, Holiness.